Nothing against gothic music, but the Legendary Pink Dots always got a bum rap being lumped into the goth genre. Sure, they had an acute understanding of doomed romance that would make even the most eyeliner-abusing, Paxil-popping teen swoon with envy, and several members decamped to form Tear Garden with industrial pioneers Skinny Puppy back in the early Nineties, but there’s so much more to the Pink Dots than velvety, mysterious darkness. There’re technicolor explosions of jagged sound, fantastical fables, slapstick comedy, free-jazz skronk, rollicking folk, bleeps and bloops, and the most tender of lullabies. The older the Dots get, the more young they get in spirit and nature; wide-eyed acolytes of imperfect sound, sharing rarefied air with the likes of Daevid Allen, Residents, Current 93, Tom Waits, and Robert Wyatt. MOVEMENT caught up with Edward Ka-Spel, the sagelike figurehead of a band flush from the twin triumphs of a new album ("Plutonium Blonde") and a well-received American tour, to talk about the album, their past, their present, and the importance of art and music above all else. That elusive next song…



How's the tour going so far?

It's been really interesting. We started out on the West Coast, Vancouver, and had some really nice shows along that coast and then we made our way right across America through snowstorms and wild badlands. It's interesting, you feel that some places are suffering, with the recession and everything. In Detroit we had a smaller crowd than usual. And people are not having a good time there. But overall people have been great to us. And there’s wonderful hospitality wherever we've been.

This tour is mostly focusing on the album we just made. We're really proud of it. It's quite a carnival ride, it goes from one extreme to the other. It's a very intense ride. We basically really challenge an audience with these shows. We're presenting almost entirely new material until the last part of it. People really have to focus and concentrate, and then we reward them with a bunch of things that they know! They have to go through the forest first, the forest of the unknown.

You're pleased with the way "Plutonium Blonde" turned out?

Yes, very. I think it might be our best album.

Where was it recorded? How long did it take?

It was a home recording, most of them are these days. It took a year to make this one. Whether we succeeded or not... You never succeed in making the perfect album. If you did, then it's time to stop. And, actually, I'm kind of glad it isn't. But it is a very strong representation of what the Legendary Pink Dots is at this moment.

When it comes time to record an album, do you all come in with fragments and scraps, complete songs, or do you all start from scratch?

It's a bit of starting from scratch. Often the foundation of the record comes from myself and Silverman, he'll have a bunch of ideas, and I'll have a bunch of ideas and we'll get together at the first of it. Then Martijn (de Kleer) comes up with a bunch of stuff on the acoustic guitar, and Nils (Van Hoornblower) comes in with horn lines, treatments, and sounds.

What all did you end up playing on the record, in terms of instruments and devices?

Me? I play whatever comes to hand! It's not just digital technology, there's a lot of analog; there's even primitive technology in a Pink Dots recording! I mean, as time goes on, the more I'm returning to these old ways... It's a shame, I mean, I can't take it on the road, but I've got this really old analog synthesizer and I just love the thing. It's a Yamaha CS-30 and it's actually as old as the band is! I got it in 1981 and I use it every day. We use very, very primitive things to get sounds. I mean, all sound is equal, especially in these times. The dirtier the sound, the more interesting. I like a little dirt around!

Can you tell me about the compositional process for "Rainbows Too"?

Actually the very shell of "Rainbows Too?" came from my girlfriend, she presented me with a little sequence that she came up with, working on the computer, and I thought, "Wait! This sounds great!" And I made a whole piece from it. Sort of like, fleshed it out and added change parts and things like that. So I had a basic track that I then presented to the rest of the band. And I wrote a lyric for it. I guess that's how we got started with "Rainbows Too?"

Or how about something like "Mailman?" This really innocent piece of Appalachian music.

Written in the kitchen! Martijn is a fan of American folk music, he can play the banjo and the fiddle and the acoustic guitar. He had a small part-time job as a mailman. We were having a session together, and he'd just come back from, like, walking the streets as a mailman. And we had this session and at 3:00 we wrote "My First Zonee." together. At 3:15 we wrote "Mailman" together! And "Mailman" was about the mailman coming home from his rounds. (laughter)

For the spoken pieces vs. the more lyrical pieces, do they start with your performance first, or does the soundscape come first and you base your words on that?

You mean something like "An Arm And A Leg?" They start with the spoken word.

"Plutonium Blonde" is really minimal. With so many multi-instrumentalists in the group, is it somewhat of a challenge to know when to play and when not to play? When to have an instrumental part, when to just leave silence?

That's where the perfectionism comes in, really. The art is in knowing what to leave out. It's quite easy to build something with sound, but knowing when to step back and let the music breathe... I like that kind of minimalism in music. You can chew on the sound, you can taste it, but you can't get its full flavor when there's too much information. It's not a deliberate minimalism, it's just a very carefully balanced sound that we're creating.

I imagine in many ways it's a letting go of your ego...

Ego and music don't go together. Nah...

How much of a role does improvisation play in composing your songs?

It plays quite a big part. I always like the chance factor to be there. Not just in the Dots, but in my solo records too. I always, in a way, have a little improvisation, even with myself... It's kind of like "let's see what happens now." Even the most structured piece of music, you can use some of it and lose some of it, just to see what happens. Often it's this wildest chance sort of mix on certain of my solo albums that goes too far that I will keep because that's the most interesting.

The wildness of the moment...

The moment is a glorious thing! I don't want sterile music, I want this really close to the edge, sort of "oooh it's going to topple over the edge." Or not. But it continues to teeter on the edge and keeps you there...

On your albums, freeform noise jostles with beautiful balladry - is that a friendly competition or do you see them, essentially, as the same thing?

I see it as part of the balance. It's not a competition between beauty and noise. I think for something to truly be beautiful it has to have the noise, the other side, to really bring it out. Otherwise... I've always been very allergic to most of what is called new age music. You know, when you go into these scented shops with the harps playing and reverbed female singers. There's no dirt there! We could never do it that way.

What were some of the formative influences on the band starting out?

Good science fiction writers. All the music that I listened to in my youth. Bands like Can, Faust, Amon Duul. People like Miles Davis; now that came later, but when I found him it was like, "Oh my god, this is so great!" I listen to a lot of music even now too. I love, even though they're hugely popular, Radiohead.

Are you always trying to search out new bands, new writers, new artists to keep turning you on? Do you think that's an essential...

Yeah! Sure! Finding new music is really important to me. It's there, that's the beauty of it. I'm desperately trying to hunt down this album that I just heard by chance when a DJ was playing this album by a group called the Delta Set before we played; a Finnish band or something. I can't even find it on the internet! Where is this thing? So, yeah, the passion never stops.

What made you want to perform?

That began when I was a small child, really. It was a dream of mine always to do this. It's funny, I was looking back at things I wrote as a child, and you can see very clearly that this was a path I was ultimately always going to follow.

When did you first start writing lyrics?

When I was about 12, somewhere around then.

Were you in a band at that point, or was it more poetry?

Some of it actually made its way into the Pink Dots later! (laughter)

What's your first memory of music?

Oh that's hard. I think it was actually Phil Spector, the Ronettes or something like that. And it was huge.

When did you first realize that making art was something that you could do with the rest of your life?

It really was around the beginning of the Pink Dots. I tried it a couple of times before then, but it was always with people who didn't have the same belief, I guess. I was very enthusiastic and I wanted to create all of the time, but I just didn't have the same feeling from the people I was trying it with. I mean, we were all very young, different priorities...

How do you get to a point of comfort with other musicians where you can maintain this very prolific working rate after about twenty years? How do you stay inspired?

Because you're always aiming for a place that's tantalizingly out of reach. And as long as it stays just out of reach, you must keep searching for it. We must keep trying to get there, because we haven't got there yet. And I don't even think I'm even close.

I'm seriously proud of a lot of what we've done. I mean, there're other things that I like less, sure, but overall, I think it's on the right track. There are things in my head that I haven't actually realized yet, and I don't know if I ever will. But it's always there. It's the thing I live for. Making music. But it's strange, my average day is... first of all there's the bits-and-pieces work. Answering emails, all of that, and trying to get that over and done with really quick so I can make music finally, y'know! (laughter) It's just like, yeah! It still feels like that.

It's interesting, with so many veteran bands, they can hardly stand to be in the same room with one another, but when I hear you, when I see you, there's this wide-eyed joy akin to a new band working on their first album.

Well, I think that with a lot of these bands that can't stand the sight of one another, they've experienced quite a bit of material success, which, to be honest, we never really had. It's always been just out of reach. And in the real world there's struggling along the way, and it's very hard to stay alive doing this. But we are. And I think that bonds us. Sometimes it's even better to struggle a little bit, to have that bond. Separate limousines... What's that have to do with music anyway?

You talked about some of the logistics of balancing business and creation. Are you able to work on some sort of music or writing or visual art every day?

Most days. Sometimes the other side of the work tends to take over, what you have to do to eat at the end of the day, and make it to the next month. Those times you have this all hands on the wall... Let's do what we can on the mail order or something like that. Because you HAVE to. In its own way, it’s also satisfying. But the real thing is the making of the music, of which there's tons of right now, and there's a lot of it that's unreleased yet. There's quite a lot that's in the vaults. On my ipod!

Do you find yourself writing on the road? Everyone's in one place...

No. Personally, I find writing on the road very hard. Because you're taking in lots and lots of information and sort of like looking out the window, you're meeting people. That's where you collect together the images that will become songs. The antenna is up on tour, and I enjoy it enormously.

Do you ever find yourself getting an idea or a snippet of music on tour, and turning to Silverman and saying, like, "We've got to try this out?"

Sure, sure. There's quite a lot of dialogue always going on in the van. Always chatting. Always laughing too. There's a lot of fun in that van. Bands on the road are generally quite a happy bunch!

What's a song you wish you had written?

You might be very surprised by this, but it's a song called "Salty Dog" by Procol Harum! It's one of the most poetic songs ever. I first heard it when I was sick in the hospital, so it really hinged itself on my very young mind at the time. And I still love it. There's such a deep sense of mystery and wonder and it's a beautiful song. That's the song I wish I had written.

When you perform, what does it feel like, what thoughts go through your head?

I don't think very much at all. I don't tend to say much to the audience because I'm so focused on where I want to go. And it's a little bit ritualistic at the moment. Sometimes I don’t eat the whole day; today's a bit of an exception because you just can't do that day after day after day. I need to get to a certain state. It's a series of little rituals. I need to do this. I will never give less than 100%, no matter how few people, no matter how many people.

You said that you need to do this, is it a physical need?

It's a physical thing. I can go quite crazy sometimes if I don't have the outlet. This is part of my being.

Live, you function almost like a jazz ensemble, there are lots of visual cues and unspoken communication when you go into an improv - is that a fair point?

Yes! Yes, that should be going on, you need to feel your way through the music. They're the songs I enjoy the most, the ones where those chance things can happen.

Where things could collapse at any moment?

Yeah, sure! (Laughter) I mean, sometimes it does!

Who do you consider your peers to be?

Hmm, I guess Terry Riley. Peter Hammill, that's someone I look up to very much. Daevid Allen from Gong. One of the greatest honors I ever had was when Daevid Allen joined me onstage in San Francisco. It was wonderful. I couldn't believe it. I mean, there I was, it was a solo show, and I turned around and I'm looking at Daevid Allen and he's playing guitar with a big grin on his face. He was enjoying it too! Wonderful man, wonderful musician. Really deserves so much more acknowledgment of his greatness.

He seems like another one who's not going to stop.

No, Daevid will never stop!

What song on the new album are you proudest of?

It's either "Cubic Caeser" or "Rainbows Too?" "Cubic Caeser," I love the lyrics of that one "Rainbows Too?" just the general... it's a very key song for me, because that's the one where I take the elevator up. I step into the elevator very naturally in that one.

Do you prefer playing live or recording music?

They're very different animals, really. It's probably equal.

Does the rise of digital music concern you at all?

Personally, I love vinyl. I love to hold a nice piece of vinyl. But I think that everyone has the right to listen to music how they choose. Illegal downloading? I understand it. I do it! But I think there has to be some kind of... If you download something and you really love it, and say the band is struggling or something, do the decent thing and go out and buy it. I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and say that you shouldn't do that. Because why shouldn't you do it? In some ways it's a wonderful opportunity. I'm actually getting the chance to hear things that I could never afford. There're a lot of albums you see on these lists, and you think, I'd love to hear that. But it's 1000 dollars or whatever, it's a rare piece of vinyl. But if you can download it and actually hear it, isn't it ultimately about the music anyway? I think music should be for everybody. For my music, I would rather they download it for free than never hear it. They have my blessing.

Do young bands ever approach you about your influence?

Yeah! Some young bands have been so kind to us. Take the Dresden Dolls, for instance. Amanda has done so much for the Pink Dots just by talking about us everywhere. And actually getting solo shows for me to open for the Dresden Dolls. It's done us so much good. Plus, the Dresden Dolls are such a great band!

Do you see the Legendary Pink Dots as something that can keep going indefinitely?

I'll try! I've no plans to quit.

What would you like your legacy to be?

Ahh... Why not?

What's next after this tour?

We'll be touring for awhile. This tour ends in San Francisco and we're already planning some shows in Europe, South America and maybe even China. And we've talked a little about the idea behind the next album. It's going to be a little bit different. The idea is that each of us, the four people onstage, will come up with three pieces of music and hand it off to the others, and see where they take it. Everything will be completely fragmented. We want to see what this can bring about. It's very new for us. It's like releasing control and for me it will be interesting. Why not, y'know?


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